Episode 225: Tatterhood
/Obviously looks aren’t everything, and with Tatterhood that is absolutely true. This fairy tale is full of twists, turns, and incredible aesthetics. Julia plays folklore sommelier and we ask about The Goat Situation.
Content Warning: This episode contains conversations about or mentions of child abuse, infertility, pregnancy, childbirth, genitals, violence, body horror, decapitation, animal attacks, age differences in relationships, misogyny, parent death, disapperances, illness, theft, animal death, and ableism.
Housekeeping
- Recommendation: This week, Julia recommends A Desolation Called Peace by Arkady Martine.
- Books: Check out our previous book recommendations, guests’ books, and more at spiritspodcast.com/books
- Call to Action: Schedule a free consultation at multitude.productions/free-consulting! And help
Sponsors
- Stitch Fix is an online personal styling service that finds and delivers clothes, shoes, and accessories to fit your body, budget, and lifestyle. Get started at stitchfix.com/spirits for 25% off when you keep your whole box!
- BetterHelp is a secure online counseling service. Get 10% off your first month at betterhelp.com/spirits
- Function of Beauty is hair care formulated specifically for you. Save 20% off your first order at functionofbeauty.com/spirits
Find Us Online
If you like Spirits, help us grow by spreading the word! Follow us @SpiritsPodcast on Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, and Goodreads. You can support us on Patreon (http://patreon.com/spiritspodcast) to unlock bonus Your Urban Legends episodes, director’s commentaries, custom recipe cards, and so much more. We also have lists of our book recommendations and previous guests’ books at http://spiritspodcast.com/books.
About Us
Spirits was created by Julia Schifini, Amanda McLoughlin and Eric Schneider. We are founding members of Multitude, an independent podcast collective and production studio. Our music is "Danger Storm" by Kevin MacLeod (http://incompetech.com), licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 3.0.
Transcript
Amanda: Welcome to Spirits Podcast, a boozy dive into mythology, legends, and folklore. Every week, we pour a drink and learn about a new story from around the world. I'm Amanda.
Julia: And I'm Julia.
Amanda: And this is Episode 225: Tatterhood. May I say, Julia, quite a, like, old school Spirits episode, which I really appreciated.
Julia: You know what? I really enjoy being able to read you, like, translations of the original text and then we get to react to it. I feel like the audience and you are getting the full experience and I really enjoyed that.
Amanda: Yeah, it was extremely calming. There were twists, fewer people died than I expected, and, overall, that's a pretty good episode, you know.
Julia: I do my best for you.
Amanda: Julia, we first want to welcome to the show the patrons who joined us over this last week; Peter, Elizabeth, Trisha, Zebra Cakes, Hoover, Trey, and Jasmine. Welcome. Thank you for giving us your hard earned human dollars. And thank you to our supporting producer-level patrons; Uhleeseeuh, Allison, Debra, Hannah, Jane, Jessica Kinser, Jessica Stewart, Justin, Keegan, Kneazlekins, Liz, Megan Linger, Megan Moon, Phil Fresh, Polly, SamneyTodd, Sarah, Skyla, and Zazi.
Julia: Yeah, they pay us with the human dollars. And then, our legend-level patrons, they pay us with that fae gold, which is – I'm not sure what's going on with that to be quite honest.
Amanda: So, thank you for your fae gold; Audra, Drew, Jack Marie, Ki, Lada, Mark, Morgan, Necroroyalty, Renegade, Sanna, and Bea Me Up Scotty. And double thanks to Lada. So, we sent our legend-level patrons some wonderful mixology tools and syrups and all kinds of fun stuff with Shaker & Spoon. Lada’s got stuck in Irish customs for about a month.
Julia: Oh, no.
Amanda: But we, we got through it. It is on their way. Lada has been a champ. Shout out to Lada.
Julia: Thank you, Lada.
Amanda: And, Julia, what have you been reading, watching, listening to, enjoying that hasn't been stuck in customs?
Julia: So, I recommended I feel like a few episodes back a book called A Memory Called Empire. I just finished reading last night the sequel, which is A Desolation Called Memory. And, oh, my god, Amanda, it – the book’s like almost 500 pages. I wanted it to be 500 more.
Amanda: Ooh, what a – what a compliment.
Julia: It is very, very good. It deals with, like, memory and human existence and what defines humanity. It was wonderful.
Amanda: Ah, delightful. That's amazing.
Julia: Mhmm.
Amanda: And we also wanted to mention something exciting that happened here at Multitude last week, which is we have been offering, like, pro bono free consulting to folks from underrepresented groups in audio for a little over a year now. But it wasn't particularly easy to, like, apply for that or to know that we did it. So, with the help of Eric Silver, we made a new web page where you can go there. You can request a meeting for free consulting, whether that's on being in a podcast, having a career in audio or digital media, just hanging out with somebody else who's doing the podcasting thing. And you can find that link at multitude.productions. It's under the Resources tab. So, if that applies to you and you'd find that helpful, it's there for you. And we dedicate 10 hours of staff time every month to doing it or just 20 appointments. Get in touch. And, if we can't accommodate you this month, we will let you know about our availability for next month.
Julia: Also, not to put two call to actions in this, but we, as of this recording, are nine patrons away from hitting our next Patreon goal.
Amanda: [gasps] Is it the tarot cards?
Julia: That is the tarot card.
Amanda: Whoa!
Julia: I'm very excited.
Amanda: That's so cool. When we set it, it was a number that I wasn't sure we could actually achieve, but that's amazing.
Julia: Yeah, I'm very, very excited. Hopefully, we'll be able to reach that goal soon. And we can start drafting out what those tarot cards are gonna look like.
Amanda: Oh, fantastic. Well, the link to that is patreon.com/spiritspodcast. All right. Well, I really enjoyed this episode. I hope you do too. I hope your goats do. I hope your kids do. I hope your sisters do. You'll see what we mean. But, in the meantime, enjoy Spirits Podcast Episode 225: Tatterhood.
Intro Music
Julia: So, Amanda, I've been thinking a lot about fairy tales ever since we did our episode on Princess Kaguya. I was thinking about how certain stories really haven't been, like, focused in on by our modern culture. Basically, the stories that weren't made into some Disneyfied movie or turned into some TV show that has a dark twist to it.
Amanda: Totally.
Julia: And there's like a lot of great fairy tales out there that I feel like have kind of fallen on the wayside or have been forgotten and I feel like they're, like, really good stories, right? So, I was also remembering how I used to read my mom's old fairytale books when I was a kid and just reading these great and buck wild stories and kind of asking myself, “Why haven't I ever heard of these before?” I wanted to dig deep into one of those stories that I remembered reading as a kid because it wasn't a grim fairy tale. It wasn't a Hans Christian Andersen fairy tale. And I think you'll – I think you'll enjoy it.
Amanda: Good. I had not even heard of it when you shared the episode title with me. So, I am going in completely fresh as is my want and I can't wait.
Julia: Yeah. So, this is the story of Tatterhood. And, again, like, when you think fairy tales, you think the Brothers Grimm. You think Hans Christian Andersen. Because those are the stories that really get retold a lot. They're the ones that usually get translated from their original language into English. I really, really love this one. So, this is a story that comes from Norway. It was collected by Peter Christen Asbjørnsen and Jørgen Moe in the mid-1800s. Obviously, true to form with many fairytales, the story predates the collection. But this is the first, like, written down version that was popularized.
Amanda: It's such a metal time for storytelling, particularly for children.
Julia: It super is.
Amanda: The idea of childhood is being invented. And everyone thought that it was a great idea to scare children into obedience. So, I'm feeling very promising here.
Julia: Don't scare your children into obedience, Spirits podcast.
Amanda: [laughs] If you do, they'll turn out like us.
Julia: Yeah.
Amanda: Which, you know, it's a real hot and cold scenario. We’re really, really your fave or we’re somebody that you detest. So—
Julia: Yes.
Amanda: —you know, take it. Take it.
Julia: We're wonderful, but you don't want your children hating you. That's kind of where we're at.
Amanda: Yes. Yeah. No, very fair.
Julia: So, I think we'll start with a retelling the story of Tatterhood, because it is buck wild. And I want you to experience the whole version of it. And then we can do a little bit of a deep dive into this fairy tale and then the different varieties of this fairy tale because there are some. This version of the story is from Asbjørnsen and Moe, like I said. It was originally translated into English by George Webbe Dasent in 1859. And then this translation was updated by D. L. Ashliman in 2001.
Amanda: Very nice.
Julia: This is almost all going to be direct quote from that translation. It's such a good story. I don't want to just summarize it. Okay. So—
Amanda: I feel like you were a sommelier, like, showing me the wine bottle before I drink it. You're like, “Yes, these are the vintages and the vineyard. And please take a swirl. Take a swish.”
Julia: Do you have the terroir of the, the Norway, the waters and whatnot and Earth.
Amanda: I'm going to bury my nose deep in this wine glass and get a whiff of, of Rome.
Julia: Wonderful. Okay. Once upon a time there was a king and a queen who had no children, and that made the queen very sad. She seldom had a happy hour. She was always crying and complaining, and saying how dull and lonesome it was in the palace. "If we had children there would be life enough," she said. At last the king and queen took into their palace an adopted girl to raise, that they might always have her with them, to love her if she did well, and scold her if she did wrong, like their own child. Already, we're just like—
Amanda: Wooh!
Julia: Questionable parenting stuff is happening here.
Amanda: A lot to unpack. A lot of, of expectations in, in fairytales that women are completely unfulfilled unless you have children. And, if you don't have children, you're real sad about it. And, certainly, that exists. There's also the human experience of being, like, sick. I don't. Everyone else enjoy. Gonna be a queen with the most resources of any woman in the entire country. Maybe, like, learn a craft or help the poor. I don't know.
Julia: One of those things would be nice, probably. What, what benefits more people or the other. Certainly.
Amanda: It really does.
Julia: One day the little girl, whom they had taken as their own, ran down into the palace yard, and was playing with a golden apple. Never good in a fairy tale. Golden apple is bad.
Amanda: Ah, excuse me, I don't even buy golden apples in the supermarket because I know that shit is very close to a fairy bower.
Julia: Mhmm. Just then an old beggar woman came by, who had a little girl with her, and it wasn't long before the little girl and the beggar's child were great friends, and began to play together, and to toss the golden apple about between them. When the queen saw this, as she sat at a window in the palace, she tapped on the pane for her foster daughter to come up. She went at once, but the beggar girl went up too; and as they went into the queen's apartment, each held the other by the hand.
Amanda: Oh, god, only bad things can happen from here on out because we have a cross class friendship.
Julia: Nope unacceptable back in this day and you'll see that with the next line. Then the queen began to scold the little lady, and to say, "You ought to be above running about and playing with a tattered beggar's brat."
Amanda: Okay. I like how we also went from adopted a baby girl to foster child. Like, there's a real, real kind of transience that is dependent on behavior that I'm not digging.
Julia: And, so, the Queen started to drive the girl down the stairs. "If the queen only knew my mother's power, she'd not drive me out," said the little girl. Right on cue. Very good.
Amanda: Ooh.
Julia: Having a twist to the story. And, when the queen asked what she meant more plainly, she told her how her mother could get her children if she chose.
Amanda: Okay.
Julia: The queen wouldn't believe it, but the girl insisted, and said that every word of it was true, and asked the queen only to try and make her mother do it. So, the queen sent the girl down to fetch up her mother.
Amanda: Fascinating. What a gambit.
Julia: Mhmm. "Do you know what your daughter says?" asked the queen of the old woman, as soon as ever she came into the room. No, the beggar woman knew nothing about it. "Well, she says you can get me children if you will," answered the queen. "Queens shouldn't listen to beggar girls' silly stories," said the old woman, and walked out of the room. Walked out of the room without the Queen, like, letting her go. Bold choice.
Amanda: Bold choice. I also respect it. Like, true. Fair.
Julia: Then the queen got angry – as I understand she would – and wanted again to drive out the little girl; but she declared it was true every word that she had said it. "Let the queen only give my mother something to drink," said the girl; "when she gets tipsy she'll soon find out a way to help you."
Amanda: Oh, my god.
Julia: Which is what a mood. Get my mom drunk, she'll do whatever you said.
Amanda: I mean that's a lot.
Julia: Mhmm. The queen was ready to try this; so the beggar woman was fetched up again, and treated with as much wine and mead as she wanted; and so it was not long before her tongue began to wag. Then the queen came out again with the same question she had asked before. "Perhaps I know one way to help you," said the beggar woman. "Your majesty must make them bring in two pails of water some evening before you go to bed. Wash yourself in each of them, and afterwards throw the water under your bed. When you look under your bed the next morning, two flowers will have sprung up, a beautiful one and an ugly one. Eat the beautiful one but leave the ugly alone. Be careful not to forget this last bit of advice." That was what the beggar woman said.
Amanda: Oh, Julia, I'm seeing how this could go wrong.
Julia: It's because you know the formulaic nature of fairy tales.
Amanda: Much like reading a detective novel or children's mystery, I will take the feeling of triumph that comes with following very laid out clues.
Julia: As you should. That's the whole point of them. Like, it's not a failure if your listeners or readers managed to figure out the twist before you get to it. It just means you did a good job laying out the clues.
Amanda: Yeah, I agree.
Julia: Yes, the queen did what the beggar woman advised her to do; she had the water brought up in two pails, washed herself in them, and emptied them under the bed; and when she looked under the bed the next morning, there stood two flowers; one was ugly and foul, and had black leaves; but the other was so bright, and fair, and lovely, she had never seen anything like it, so she ate it up at once. But the pretty flower tasted so sweet, that she couldn't help herself. She ate the other one too, for, she thought, "I'm sure that it can't hurt or help me much either way." Amanda: To do the one thing the beggar woman told you not to do.
Julia: The one thing that she was like, “Remember this last piece of advice too.” Like, it seems important.
Amanda: It's like a teacher going, “Hey, for the test tomorrow, write this one down. Okay.”
Julia: Mhmm. Mhmm. Just this one right there. Well, sure enough, after a while the queen was brought to bed. First of all, just brought to bed. Not like she was pregnant
Amanda: [laughs]
Julia: —nope, it was just she was brought to bed. First of all, she had a girl who had a wooden spoon in her hand, and rode upon a goat. She was disgusting and ugly, and the very moment she came into the world she bawled out "Mamma."
Amanda: Oh, oh, boy.
Julia: I have some questions about this.
Amanda: Please, lay them on me.
Julia: I'm trying to think if this was like an Athena thing, where she came out almost fully born and had a spoon. And there's also a little goat in there that she rode out of the vagina. I'm not sure if that's what happened there.
Amanda: I'm getting real kind of, like, 16th century portraits of Jesus energy—
Julia: Okay.
Amanda: —where she’s a little man.
Julia: Just a little man.
Amanda: That's what I'm getting here.
Julia: So, she bawls out the word Mamma. "If I'm your mamma," said the queen, "God give me grace to mend my ways." "Oh, don't be sorry," said the girl on the goat, "for one will soon come after me who is better looking.
Amanda: Oh my.
Julia: After a while, the queen had another girl, who was so beautiful and sweet that no one had ever set eyes on such a lovely child. You may be sure that the queen was very well pleased. The elder twin they called "Tatterhood," because she was always so ugly and so ragged, and because she had a hood that hung about her ears in tatters.
Amanda: Oh, getting kind of call baby vibes.
Julia: I’m into it. I’m into it. The queen could hardly bear to look at her. The nurses tried to shut her up in a room by herself, but it did no good. She always had to be where the younger twin was, and no one could ever keep them apart. There is probably like an easy reading into this about, like, disability and childbirth and stuff like that. I'm sure that there is. I am not knowledgeable enough to really dig deep into that. But I'm sure that that is something that you could absolutely read into this fairy tale.
Amanda: Yeah, check out previous guest Amanda LeDuc.
Julia: One Christmas Eve – Christmas Eve. What? What's happening?
Amanda: A lot of time jumps happening here. I like to picture the storyteller kind of, like, doing a little twirl like, oh, transition.
Julia: One Christmas eve, when they were half grown up, there arose a frightful noise and clatter in the hallway outside the queen's apartment. Tatterhood asked what it was that was making such a noise outside. "Oh," said the queen, "it isn't worth asking about." But Tatterhood wouldn't give in until she found out all about it; and, so, the queen told her it was a pack of trolls and witches who had come there to celebrate Christmas.
Amanda: Ooh.
Julia: You know, the trolls and the witches when they celebrate Christmas.
Amanda: I mean that sounds super fun. I would go to that party. I just wouldn't eat any apples.
Julia: So Tatterhood said that she would just go out and drive them away. In spite of all they could say and however much they begged and asked her to leave the trolls alone, she just had to go out and drive the witches off. She begged the queen to be careful and keep all of the doors shut tight, so that not one of them would open the least bit.
Amanda: Hmm. Sounds like something the queen's not gonna do even though she's told explicitly to do it.
Julia: Yes, that sounds about right. That sounds like something she would do. So, having said this, off she went with her wooden spoon, and began to hunt out and drive away the hags. All the while, there was such a commotion out in the gallery that the like of it had never been seen or heard before. The whole palace creaked and groaned as if every joint and beam were going to be torn out of its place. I like this translation is very like you can tell that someone is supposed to be telling the story because it then goes. Now, I can't say exactly what happened; but, somehow or other, one door did open a little bit, and her twin sister just peeped out to see how things were going with Tatterhood, and put her head a tiny bit through the opening.
Amanda: Oh, no.
Julia: But, pop! up came an old witch, and whipped off her head, and stuck a calf's head on her shoulders instead; and, so, the princess ran back into the room on all fours, and began to "moo" like a calf.
Amanda: Oh, why?
Julia: Oh, why. Yep. The oh my is right. Just you got a cow princess now. That's the whole thing that they’re gonna have to deal with.
Amanda: I am wondering what the goat’s up to, but I think we'll get there.
Julia: I think she's riding around on the goat with her wooden spoon—
Amanda: Yeah. Yeah.
Julia: —just like in battle. Don't worry the goat is important.
Amanda: Okay. Good. I was gonna say I just – I would love to know about this goat situation.
Julia: And the goat situation very good. So, when Tatterhood came back and saw her sister, she scolded them all, and was very angry because they hadn't kept better watch, and asked them what they thought of their carelessness now that her sister had been turned into a calf. "But I'll see if I can't set her free," she said. Tatterhood being a – being a good sister being like—
Amanda: I know.
Julia: —“Listen, I just fend it off this castle from trolls and witches and whatnot. I'm gonna save my sister too. Let's go for this.”
Amanda: If she became a villain, that would be, like, I mean pretty classic storytelling in terms of not a great outcome. But I’d understand it.
Julia: Mhmm. Then she asked the king for a ship with a full set of sails and a good load of stores, but she would not have a captain or any sailors. No; she would sail away with her sister all alone. There was no holding her back, and at last they let her have her own way. And, now, Amanda, we will get back to what happens to Tatterhood and her cow sister after she said sails. But, first, let's grab a refill.
Amanda: I need one. Let's go.
Julia: [chuckles]
Midroll Music
Julia: Amanda, it's been a long time since I've gotten a haircut because, you know, pandemic and stuff like that. But I still feel like my hair is looking really, really good. And I have to credit a lot of that to the fact that I've been using my Function of Beauty haircare products. Function of Beauty is the world leader in customizable beauty offering precise formulas for your hair’s specific needs. All you have to do is take a quick but thorough quiz that tells them a little bit about your hair type, and your hair goals, and whether you want to like lengthen or volumize or, like, control the oil in your hair. And, because your hair changes from season to season, you can change your hair goals before they send you your new shipment, which is really, really cool. It's like, “Oh, yeah, I am gonna be more oily because we're going into summer and I'm gonna sweat more. Thanks Function of Beauty for reminding me of that.” You can then choose your color and your fragrance. I always go with the rose because I really like it. It's very heady and nice. But, if you're not a big fan of a lot of fragrance, you can get it non-fragrance or less fragrant. And then Function of Beauty’s team determines the perfect blend of ingredients for you, bottles up your formula, and delivers it right to you. And every ingredient Function of Beauty uses is vegan and cruelty free. And they never use sulfates or parabens. And you can go completely silicone free, which, if that's something that's super important to you, you can do it. Thanks.
Amanda: So, never buy off-the-shelf just to be disappointed ever again. Go to functionofbeauty.com/spirits to take your quiz and save 20 percent on your first order. That applies to their full range of customized hair, skin, and body products by the way. Go to functionofbeauty.com/spirits to let them know that you came from our show and to get 20 percent off your order, functionofbeauty.com/spirits. This podcast is sponsored by BetterHelp. If there is something on your mind, something weighing you down, a thing that you feel yourself doing again, or a situation you find yourself getting into again and again and you're like, “Man, it'd be really helpful to talk to somebody about this, to see what's up, to come up with strategies. Someone who isn't connected to me or my daily life and, like, has a horse in the race, you know, to be able to just kind of have that independent party to say like, “Hey, you know, help me. You're here on my side, on my team.” And, you know, they're just there to listen to you and help you. And that is what therapy is like. And everybody ought to have access to it and the way that I am able to access therapy, in a way that's more affordable than traditional offline counseling and also way more flexible, particularly right now when we're doing so many, you know, virtual visits and phone calls is BetterHelp. I love that they connect you with a professional counselor. That's all done securely online. They have lots of ranges of expertise. So, particular methods, or identities, or specialties that your therapists have. It's really easy to search for that and match with somebody. And, if you ever have to switch counselors, they make it free and really easy to do. Just not how it is outside of BetterHelp. So, listen, they want you to start living a happier life today. Visit betterhelp.com, betterH-E-L-P.com/spirits to get 10 percent off your first month of counseling.
Julia: Again, that is betterH-E-L-P.com/spirits to join over a million people who have taken charge of their mental health with the help of an experienced professional.
Amanda: Julia, it's that time of the year where layers are more essential than ever. And you might leave your house and it's a little bit crisp, chilly, breezy outside, but, by the time you get to the office, maybe it's really hot. Maybe you leave your house and it's a lovely sunny day and then your 100-year-old office building has no heating on and is incredibly cold inside. And, so, you have to pull a cardigan out of your desk or your bag. And I love that I was able to ask my Stitch Fix stylist to send me some cardigans. I was like, “I want it to be about knee length. I want real kind of like Buffy duster vibes. I want to look like an elementary school teacher in the 90s. And, also, if they've elbow patches, all the better.” Not stuff that I can very easily Google, you know. But I love that my Stitch Fix stylist knows my sizes, my budget, the kinds of things that work well for me. And, like, I don't want them to close to the armpits because I feel like I sweat more. And, like, how do people do that? And they send you stuff right to your door that is handpicked for. You get to try on your stuff at home before you buy. Keep what you love and return what you don't. Stitch Fix has free shipping, easy returns and exchanges, including a prepaid return envelope right in there with your stuff, which makes it so easy. There's also no subscription required. So, you can try it once, set up automatic deliveries; whatever you prefer. But you have a $20 styling fee for each box that they do send you. But that gets credited toward any piece that you keep. There's no hidden fees. It's really easy to understand.
Julia: Yeah. So, if you want cool new cardigans like Amanda’s getting in her next box, you can get started today at stitchfix.com/spirits and you'll get 25 percent off when you keep everything in your fix. That is stitchfix.com/spirits for 25 percent off when you keep everything in your fix, stitchfix.com/spirits.
Amanda: And, now, let's get back to the show.
Julia: So, for this story, since this golden apple kind of starts as the catalyst for the story and the arrival of the two sisters, I thought a golden apple cocktail would be just the ticket. It is Apple brandy mostly focused, which normally isn't my favorite liquor base to have a cocktail with. But it works really well with this drink because it's like very gently spiced. There's a surprising like herbal element to it. It's very good. If you are one of our patrons at our recipe card tier, you can get a copy of this. And, let me tell you, one of my favorite apple-based recipes. Not gonna lie.
Amanda: Yeah, I fell in love with Apple brandy after a Shaker & Spoon box.
Julia: Oh.
Amanda: So, if you also want to – listen, they didn't sponsor this episode, but I do have a discount code. So, shakerandspoon/creepycool and you can get a nice discount off of your first Shaker & Spoon box. It's, it's good shit, people.
Julia: I got my parents a Shaker & Spoon box for Christmas this year. And my mom just texted me. She's like, “Oh, we made one of the, like, old fashions that they sent in the most recent rye box. And, oh, my god, I don't drink rye, but dang, Julia.” I was like, “Yeah, mom. Go that's the best—
Amanda: Yeah.
Julia: —part about Shaker & Spoon.
Amanda: And they sent, like, a dehydrated apple slices that you can use as, like, garnish. Ah, beautiful. Beautiful.
Julia: They’re the best. Anyway, enough about Shaker & Spoon. Back to Tatterhood. Tatterhood sailed off, and steered her ship right up to the land where the witches lived. When she came to the landing place, she told her sister to stay quite still on board the ship; but she herself rode on her goat up to the witches' castle. When she got there, one of the windows in the gallery was open, and there she saw her sister's head hung up on the window frame; so she jumped her goat through the window into the gallery, snapped up the head, and set off with it.
Amanda: Oh, my god, goat as noble steed, like, plus mobility device is incredible.
Julia: It feels very inspired by Thor because Thor used to ride into battle with his two goats, which he could then eat and then regurgitate and they would come back to life. That's the best part.
Amanda: Love it. So metal.
Julia: The witches came after her to try to get the head back. They flocked around her as thick as a swarm of bees or a nest of ants. The goat snorted and puffed, and butted with his horns, and Tatterhood beat and banged them about with her wooden spoon; and, so, the pack of witches had to give up. So, Tatterhood got back to her ship, took the calf's head off her sister, and put her own on again, and then she became a girl as she had been before. Very nice. Very good. After that she sailed a long, long way, to a strange king's new realm. So, clearly, not returning home after the—
Amanda: Ooh.
Julia: —terrible nature that her parents had put her upon.
Amanda: I mean yeah.
Julia They're like, “We're gonna find our fortunes elsewhere in another strange new land and that's what we're gonna do.” Now, the king of this land – the one that they had just landed on – was a widower, and had an only son. When he saw the strange sail, he sent messengers down to the beach to find out where it came from, and who owned it; but, when the king's men came down there, the only person they saw on board was Tatterhood, and there she was, riding around and around the deck on her goat at full speed, until her strands of hair streamed in the wind.
Amanda: Incredible. I'm seeing so many, like, Halloween costumes.
Julia: It’s very good. I'm gonna dress up this Tatterhood next year for Halloween. Calling it now.
Amanda: I mean incredible. Like, listen, if you had a toddler and also a goat, is there any other option for a costume?
Julia: No. If you have a toddler and a goat, I need to see them in some Tatterhood costumes immediately. Please make this happen.
Amanda: Yes, the costume isn't even important. The baby on the goat is. So, @SpiritsPodcast, tag us on Insta, please.
Julia: Babies and goats. We always want pictures of babies and goats.
Amanda: Babies, goats, and new leaves on your plants. Anytime.
Julia: #leafwatch. Leaf watch. The men from the palace were all amazed at this sight, and asked if more people were not on board. Yes, there were; she had a sister with her, said Tatterhood. They wanted to see too, but Tatterhood said no. "No one shall see her, unless the king comes himself," she said; and, so, she began to gallop about on her goat again until the deck thundered.
Amanda: So, good.
Julia: No, you can’t see my sister.
Amanda: Great boundaries. I understand it. Even if this is a con, I respect it.
Julia: So, when the servants got back to the palace, and told what they had seen and heard down at the ship, the king wanted to set out at once to see the girl that rode on the goat.
Amanda: [chuckles]
Julia: When he arrived there, Tatterhood brought out her sister, and she was so beautiful and gentle that the king immediately fell head over heels in love with her. This is a – this is a young child, sir. Probably not great, but we’ll—
Amanda: Yeah.
Julia: —because it was a different time. And things were more acceptable back then even though they are not acceptable now.
Amanda: Absolutely.
Julia: He brought them both back with him to the palace, and wanted to have the sister for his queen; but Tatterhood said "No," the king couldn't have her in any way, unless the king's son would take Tatterhood.
Amanda: Okay.
Julia: Here's the con. Here's the con, Amanda.
Amanda: Yeah.
Julia: That, as you may guess, the prince did not want to do at all, because Tatterhood was so an ugly. But she’s so cool. She’s got a goat and she runs around. She’s got a cool spoon. Come on, man.
Amanda: Come on. I mean I know that they don't want women with initiative. But, you know, of a pretty person and Tatterhood, Tatterhood is much more interesting to date. Come on.
Julia: Tatterhood, so much more interesting a person. The other girl didn't used to be a cow. So, I guess that's kind of a fun, like, anecdote to get to know your spouse with.
Amanda: I'm sure she's great. But I think, in a world where women's looks are kind of the only assets that society prescribes any value to, you know, you, you get what you need to get how you can get it. And this seems like a pretty – she's not, like, harming anybody. It's a pretty ethical, you know, way to, like, secure both of their futures.
Julia: Yeah, it's pretty solid. However, at last, the king and all the others in the palace talked him into it, and he gave in, promising to take her for his queen. But he was a very sad man. They had to make a note. He was very sad about it. He was not having a good time. Okay.
Amanda: Aww. Too bad.
Julia: Now, they began making preparations for the wedding, both with brewing and baking, which, damn, that’s so cool. I felt bad.
Amanda: Incredible.
Julia: And, when all was ready, they went to church. The prince thought it the worst church service he had ever been to in his whole life. This is a lot of editorializing happening here in this story.
Amanda: Wow.
Julia: The king left first with his bride, and she was so lovely and so grand, all the people stopped to look at her along the road, and they stared at her until she was out of sight. After them came the prince on horseback by the side of Tatterhood, who trotted along on her goat with her wooden spoon in her fist. Like, not even getting on your horse, man. I got my goat. I got my spoon. I'm ready to go. I'm newly married.
Amanda: I love it.
Julia: To look at him, he was not going to a wedding, but to a burial, and his own at that. He seemed so sad, and did not speak a word. Again, classic.
Amanda: It's like the butterfly lovers but bad.
Julia: [chuckles] "Why don't you talk?" asked Tatterhood, when they had ridden a bit. "Why, what should I talk about?" answered the prince.
Amanda: Ugh.
Julia: "Well, you might at least ask me why I ride upon this ugly goat," said Tatterhood. "Why do you ride on that ugly goat?" asked the prince. "Is it an ugly goat? Why, it's the most beautiful horse that a bride ever rode," answered Tatterhood.
Amanda: [chuckles]
Julia: And, in an instant, the goat became a horse, the finest that the prince had ever seen.
Amanda: Whoa.
Julia: They rode on a bit further, but the prince was just as sad as before, and couldn't say a word. So, Tatterhood asked him again why he didn't talk, and when the prince answered, he didn't know what to talk about. And she said, "Well, you can ask me why I ride with this ugly spoon in my fist." "Why do you ride with that ugly spoon?" asked the prince. "Is it an ugly spoon? Why, it's the loveliest silver fan that a bride ever carried," said Tatterhood; and, in an instant, it became a silver fan, so bright that it glistened.
Amanda: Fucking baller.
Julia: They rode a little way further, but the prince was still just as sad, and did not say a word. In a little while, Tatterhood asked him again why he didn't talk, and told him to ask why she wore the ugly gray hood on her head. "Why do you wear that ugly gray hood on your head?" asked the prince. "Is it an ugly hood? Why, it's the brightest golden crown that a bride ever wore," answered Tatterhood, and it became a crown at once.
Amanda: I really thought she was gonna turn into, like, a big spider or something. I'm just – I'm tense over here. I’m tense.
Julia: [laughs] I would tell you that it's not the ending of the story.
Amanda: [laughs] Now, they rode a long way further, and the prince was so sad that he sat without making a sound or uttering a word, just as before. So, his bride asked him again why he didn't talk, and told him to ask now why her face was so ugly and gray. "Yes," asked the prince, "why is your face so ugly and gray?" "Am I ugly? You think my sister beautiful, but I am ten times more beautiful," said the bride, and, when the prince looked at her, she was so beautiful, he thought that she was the most beautiful woman in the world. After that, it was no wonder that the prince found his tongue, and no longer rode along with his head hanging down.
Amanda: [sighs]
Julia: And, so, they drank the bridal cup both deep and long, which sounds very sexual when you put it that way, translation.
Amanda: [laughs]
Julia: And, after that, both prince and king set out with their brides to the princesses' palace. So, they had another bridal feast and drank once more, both deep and long. Again, very sexual.
Amanda: Mhmm. Mhmm.
Julia: There was no end to the celebration. Now, run quickly to the king's palace and there will still be a drop of the bridal ale left for you. And that's the tale of Tatterhood.
Amanda: Wow. What an ending.
Julia: What an ending. There’s lots of twists. There's a lot of, like, everyone lives happily ever after. But there's also, like, treachery and battles and witches and spells. It's very, very good.
Amanda: Incredible. I love how much agency Tatterhood has and how she is proud of herself and know she has power. She doesn't need to, like, wait for a nice appearance, in other words, in order to, like, have dignity and power.
Julia: Yeah. And there's never like a feeling of, “Oh, woe is me. Someone please help me and my sister because we're suffering so.” Like, it's not a Cinderella thing where it's like, “I need to talk to my dead mother and a tree and she'll send birds and stuff to help me.” No, it's very much like a, “I'm going to battle all of these trolls and witches. And, when my sister becomes part cow, I'm gonna go ahead and go to the witch’s land to get her head back.” Like, there's so much, like you said, agency to her. And there's never, like, any sort of reluctance to become the hero of her own story. I love that so much.
Amanda: Yeah.
Julia: And she also, like, sets up, like, a life for both her and her sister to make sure that they both are happy and taken care of, which is very rare in a story like this.
Amanda: Yeah, obviously, I, I would hope that the prince would, like, fall in love with her as she is and, you know, then she can kind of appear wherever she wants. I don't love that the entire castle and his family had to convince him that this was a good idea. But I think, hopefully, that that made him just, like, grateful and in love with his wife for the rest of their marriage.
Julia: Yeah. And it's not like – yes, Tatterhood, in his mind, becomes beautiful because of some sort of magic that we see there, but it's not like she has changed personality at all. You know, she's still Tatterhood. She's still the same woman who went and fought a bunch of witches and stuff. So, I feel like, yes, it's like the beauty is in the eye of the beholder kind of thing is the end of the story and the end of this tale.
Amanda: Yeah, I just love that she got the fuck out of a – of a bad kingdom with her sisters. Secured them both a happy and comfortable life. I, again, head canon is that the original foster daughter of the queen was adopted by the beggar woman and she and her sister, you know, were also there for each other their whole lives.
Julia: Yeah, that is a great point. They do not say what happens to that poor foster child. But I imagine that when the queen had her own like, “biological children” that she was probably fine with the foster child going off with a family that would actually love and appreciate her.
Amanda: Totally. Wow. I, I'm trying to think of, like, if there are any morals to the tale, except that Tatterhood is a fucking baller.
Julia: Fucking badass Tatterhood.
Amanda: I love it. Oh, man. Fantastic story. And, yeah, I mean why do you think, Julia, that this didn't sort of become one of the ones that we all reference, at least, here in the US?
Julia: I don't know. It's so good. I feel like Disney just didn't grab on to this one because the idea of like, “Oh, she has to be badass ugly for, like—
Amanda: [laughs]
Julia: —90 percent of the film. That wouldn't work.
Amanda: I'm not sure I have much to say because I, I like her so much.
Julia: I know. She's great. But I would love for us to just go wild like the old beggar woman at the beginning of the story with our cocktails and dig a little bit more into the story and the variations.
Amanda: Yes, please.
Julia: In order to do that, I'm gonna have to quickly talk about the Aarne–Thompson–Uther Index, which I think we've talked about on the show before. But I'd love to give everyone a refresher. So, basically, the Aarne-Thompson-Uther Index or the ATU Index is a catalogue of folktale types that are used by folklorists. It defines tale types and links various fairy tales and folklore across different cultures based off of the type of story that it's telling. So, a tale type that is defined by the ATU Index is “a traditional tale” that has an independent existence. It may be told as a complete narrative and does not depend for its meaning on another tale. It may indeed happen to be told with another tale, but the fact that it may be told alone attests to its independence. It may consist of only one motif or of many. So, slightly broad definition in terms of like what a tale is. But you'll see that it allows them to kind of group many different stories from various cultures. So, for example, animal bride is one of the classic groupings and would contain something like Chonguita, the monkey wife from the Philippines, the dog bride from India, the frog's bridegroom from Germany, and the mouse maiden from Sri Lanka. So, those are all stories that could be in the same category of animal bride. But, as you can see, they are from very different cultures across the world.
Amanda: Mhmm.
Julia: And I think that the ATU Index is a very useful tool in the study of folklore. It's, by no mean, a perfect system. And there's a lot of, like, cross categorization and stuff like that. And I don't want our listeners to think that we're just, like, accepting it as the end all be all. But I do think it is an extremely useful tool in observing stories and categorizing them for research. And then, from there, any individual folklorists can extrapolate deeper meaning from their own research. Anyway, so, according to the ATU Index, the story of Tatterhood falls under 711, which is the ugly and the beautiful twin. As such, there are a couple of different variants on the story in this category. So, one is Prince Lindworm from Sweden.
Amanda: Mhmm.
Julia: In this story, the titular Prince Lindworm is the ugly twin. A lindworm is basically like a wingless serpentine creature. And, in this version of the story, the beggar woman advises the queen to eat two onions, but the Queen doesn't peel the first onion. And, so, because of that, the twin that is born of that onion is born the lindworm, which is that serpentine creature.
Amanda: [laughs]
Julia: I think it's really cool. That's very funny. Eating onions is hilarious to me.
Amanda: Yeah. And not peeling them is like, “Holy shit.”
Julia: You’re just like eaten that like an apple. Okay. Sure. Yeah.
Amanda: Yeah. Wow.
Julia: At least make like a soup or something out of it. Damn, lady. But there's also my favorite variation, which comes from Scotland, and it's called Kate Crackernuts.
Amanda: Ooh.
Julia: Just the best name. Like, I was like, “Okay. Tatterhood.” And then I did a little bit of research and they're also like, “Do you also mean Kate Crackernuts?” I'm like, “I do now. I do now, Google.”
Amanda: Now that you mentioned it, yeah.
Julia: So, her story is a little shorter. But, basically, a king had a daughter with his first wife who died and that daughter was very beautiful. When he remarried, he in the Queen also had a child who was not as beautiful and they named her Kate. The Queen hated the first daughter, Anne, but Kate loved her sister. Again, there's like that I don't care if my parent loves one of us over the other. I'm just gonna, you know, love my sister no matter what, which is adorable.
Amanda: There's a real, like, breaking the cycles of generational, you know, mistreatment or abuse vibe here, which I really love.
Julia: Yes.
Amanda: I'm, I'm so into sisters loving each other.
Julia: Yeah. So, the Queen puts a curse on Anne's beauty and turns her head into a sheep's head. Which is worse, in your opinion, the sheep or the cow? Sheep or cow?
Amanda: Oh, it's hard to say.
Julia: Hmm.
Amanda: I don't know. I feel like both can be cute. Both can be – can be a little – a little tough to look at. Sheep would be better to snuggle with. So, that's – I'm gonna say that's better.
Julia: Yes, but she also has a slit pupil. Not fun.
Amanda: Cow. Cow then.
Julia: Yeah, cow, big brown eyes.
Amanda: Very cute. I know.
Julia: Very cute.
Amanda: Yeah.
Julia: But not as fluffy. So, there—
Amanda: That’s okay.
Julia: —there are pros and cons here.
Amanda: I'll take not snake eyes, please.
Julia: You got it. So, because of what her mother did, Anne and Kate go off to seek new fortune in another land. Very similar to Tatterhood and her sister.
Amanda: Oh, nice.
Julia: And they find a castle where the king has two sons, one of whom is sick and would vanish at night only to return in the morning. But anyone who set to watch him also vanish and just didn't return. Not great. So, Kate asks the king for them to stay in the castle in exchange for her and her sick sister watching over the prince. So, the king agrees and Kate keeps guard over the sick Prince the first night. At midnight, the prince leaves his bed chamber and rides off on his horse. And, so, Kate follows him and collects nuts in the forest as she does so. The prince winds up at this Green Hill where the fae have gathered and welcome the prince and are too caught up in there, like, revelry and dancing to notice Kate kind of ride in with him. So, Kate sees, when she follows the prince on the second night, that there's this fairy baby playing on the hill with this wand and hears from just, like, the talking of the fae that three strokes of the wand will cure her sister, Anne, and get rid of that sheep head.
Amanda: Wow. I mean that's convenient to hear.
Julia: Very, very good oversight by, by Kate there. So, Kate rolls a few of the nuts that she had gathered from the forest and distracts the baby and then steals the wand. We're just stealing things from babies now. You know, classic.
Amanda: Yeah. Yeah.
Julia: I would do it though. If it was like I can save my sister by distracting and stealing from a child, I would do it.
Amanda: Yeah, the people will be mad for like 10 minutes. It'll be okay.
Julia: Yeah. On the third night, the king asks if they've figured out, like, what's wrong with the prince and where he keeps going. And Kate says that she has and that she and her sister should be allowed to stay if she can cure the prince and that, if she cures him, she's allowed to marry him. The king's like, “Yes, cure my son. This is awesome. Do it. You can marry him if you want. Sounds great.”
Amanda: I'm loving all these enterprising, like, contract forming women.
Julia: Yes.
Amanda: This is great.
Julia: So, on the third night when the prince rose and returned to the hill, Kate followed him again. This time, seeing the baby playing with a bird that she hears – again, overhearing just the fae talking about, “Yeah, bird over there, if you took three bites of it, cure any disease.”
Amanda: Oh, that's worse than a wand.
Julia: [laughs] So, Kate does what she did before. She rolls some nuts by the baby. The baby gets distracted. She steals the bird. She takes the bird. She returns back to the castle. Cooks the bird and then she feeds it to the prince, which cures him. Kate marries the cured prince. And the other prince who's not sick sees the cured and who no longer has a sheep's head and immediately falls in love with her and marries her. So, they all live happily ever after. Blah, blah, blah. Like, ruling with dual sibling prince and princess. I think it's very cute.
Amanda: Aww.
Julia: So, I just – I really liked both of these stories because, like, despite the assumption that the ugly sister would be jealous and scorn the beautiful one, that's never the case. Like, I feel like, you know, in Cinderella, the stepsisters are so mean because they can be and also because Cinderella is more beautiful than them. And, so, they're like—
Amanda: Yeah.
Julia: —now, just go shift lentils out of the ashes, Cinderella. That seems like a thing that you should do—
Amanda: [chuckles]
Julia: —so that no one sees how goddamn gorgeous you are. No, that's never the case. These sisters just love each other. It doesn't matter what their beauty is like. And, Kate, not as pretty, but still gets the prince because she's super cunning.
Amanda: Absolutely. And it's not like the pretty sister has to kind of justify the existence of the other one. I know it's kind of, like, a theme of sort of compensating for what is perceived as a deficiency, right, when, like, the ugly person or the not beautiful person sort of, like, has to, you know, make up for their looks in other ways, which is kind of bullshit in its own way.
Julia: Yeah.
Amanda: But it is pleasant to see girls and women heisting society by arranging good marriages for themselves.
Julia: Hey, if you are a Spirits listener and you can think, off the top of your head, of a fairy tale that involves women heisting royals, you let us know. You send us those stories.
Amanda: Please do.
Julia: But, yeah, it's just like both sets of sisters are super dedicated to each other. And then, when tragedy befalls the other, they go out of their way to cure them or to help them in some way. And it's just a really cool twist on what I feel like I usually see in fairy tales. So, I particularly love the trope, not the trope of ugly twin, beautiful twin, but the symbolism of the stories where it's just like siblings helping each other out despite the circumstances.
Amanda: I love that, Julia. It's so entertaining. And I feel like the index you mentioned too is – it's like reading a Wikipedia list – oh, Wikipedia pages where you just go through like, “Oh, yes, I do want to know, you know, all about, like, cities that are under a square mile or, like, countries that are within other countries within other countries and all kinds of just like fun kind of cross sections of geography and history in the world that I did not know existed.”
Julia: Yeah. So, you know, that's a – that's a good resource. If you want to find a bunch of different, like, tropes of folklore, that's a great research to start with and kind of see the different categories of these stories that we grew up with. But there's so much more than what we grew up with.
Amanda: Yeah. And then you can dive in and decide your own categorizations and fun ways that you want to, you know, bookmark your favorite fairy tales.
Julia: You can charge your own path just like Tatterhood on her beautiful, beautiful goat.
Amanda: Oh, cute. I hope that goat lived a long and very happy life.
Julia: I bet he did. He was a magic goat that came out with her when she was born. So, he's probably a pretty cool goat. He breathes his last breath, I imagined, the day the Tatterhood breathes hers.
Amanda: Oh, yeah, in sync and then they both ascend to goat heaven.
Julia: [chuckles] Yes, she goes to goat heaven too.
Amanda: Just a lot of high places to stand and a lot of stuff to eat.
Julia: Mhmm.
Amanda: You know.
Julia: There's a lot of salt just to lick off the rocks.
Amanda: What more could you want?
Julia: What more could you want?
Amanda: Well, Julia, thank you so much for bringing these stories to the table today. Thanks for this delicious cocktail and for not stealing my soul and keeping me in your fairy bower.
Julia: You're welcome. You're welcome. If your head ever turns into some sort of farm animal, I would go out of my way to get it back and cure you.
Amanda: Thank you and I would try my best to remember to—
Julia: Stay creepy.
Amanda: Stay cool.
Outro Music
Amanda: Spirits was created by Amanda McLoughlin, Julia Schifini, and Eric Schneider with music by Kevin MacLeod and visual design by Allyson Wakeman.
Julia: Keep up with all things creepy and cool by following us @SpiritsPodcast on Twitter, Instagram, Facebook, and Tumblr. We also have all of our episode transcripts, guest appearances, and merch on our website as well as a form to send us your urban legends at spiritspodcast.com.
Amanda: Join our member community on Patreon, patreon.com/spiritspodcast, for all kinds of behind-the-scenes stuff. Just $1 gets you access to audio extras with so much more available too; recipe cards, director’s commentaries, exclusive merch, and real physical gifts.
Julia: We are a founding member of Multitude, a collective of independent audio professionals. If you'd like Spirits, you will love the other shows that live on our website at multitude.productions.
Amanda: And, above all else, if you liked what you heard today, please share us with your friends. That is the very best way to help us keep on growing.
Julia: Thank you so much for listening. Till next time.
Transcriptionist: Rachelle Rose Bacharo
Editor: Krizia Casil